e-mails from 3/25/98...
Subject: (Fwd) Are plants making fish happy???
Query and Response (below)
Message from Thomas Gerster & Eva Reinhard
**********************************************************
Hello everybody,
The head of the local veterinarian authority inspected our fish
facility this morning. While looking at our tanks he felt pity for our
fish since they have no place to hide and no nice plants to look at!
We tried to convince him that the way we keep our fish is standard
procedure everywhere else and that the presence of plants might even
create stress for the fish because it is then more difficult to catch
them. Nevertheless, he insisted that we prove to him that the way we
treat our fish at present is "natural"!
Therefore, our question to all of you out there: Can anybody provide
us with literature references that might support the claim that the
fish are "happy" if they are kept as they are maintained in all the
major labs? Does anybody have a detailled description about their wild
life habitat in Southeast Asia (since they are supposedly living in
streams with quite a bit of water running we always assumed that there
would not be much plants occuring around them)?
We appreciate all your suggestions and support
Eva Reinhard
Thomas Gerster
Biozentrum der Universitaet Basel
Switzerland
Response to question about plants/fish from Monte Westerfield,
University of Oregon
*********************************************************************
Eva and Thomas,
This is a major bummer! The main reason we don't use plants is
because they and their soil introduce a whole new ecosystem with
bacteria and animals that we can't control. Chances are high that the
fish will contract diseases from these pathogens. It's best to keep
the tanks as clean as possible.
Can you point to the zfish book and the animal use protocols that we
site their which are approved by the NIH in the US and similar
agencies in all other countries?
Sorry!
-Monte
Monte Westerfield
Message from Teresa Nicolson
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Date sent: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:14:37 +0100
From: teresa.nicolson@tuebingen.mpg.de (Teresa Nicolson)
Subject: Re: Are plants making fish happy???
Dear Eva and Thomas,
A sign that the fish are "happy", i.e. that they are well fed, the
water conditions are good, etc. is if they lay eggs (I would cite the
zebrafish book by M.W.). If fish are stressed or "unhappy" then
there is no way that they would mate and lay eggs, so I think this is
proof enough that they do not deserve anyone's pity. Also, if fish
are kept in large groups then there is no reason to hide, i.e. they
will not kill each other. Otherwise we provide single pairs with
green plastic grass.
-Teresa Nicolson
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Message from Richard Winn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Date sent: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 12:31:04 -0500 (EST)
From: Richard Winn
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Are plants making fish happy???
Tom and Eva- As a member of our Animal Care and Use Committee I
understand where the concern for the animal's shelter may be coming
from. However, I concur with Monte's comments that placing plants in
the tanks can cause significant problems for maintaining healthy
stocks. There is sufficient precedent for culturing fish in systems
that do not have plants or any other materials. This can be accepted
as standard practice for most applications. If one is attempting to
maintain some "SPF (specific pathogen free)" populations, the
introduction of any materials would be prohibited. The animal care
reviewer should recall that flexibility in the care of animals must be
considered appropriate to the species. The guidelines are simply that-
guidelines. If shelter is a primary concern, inert objects, such as
plastic can be used, but may contribute to maintenance problems.
Richard Winn, Ph.D.
Center for Applied Isotope Studies
University of Georgia
120 Riverbend Road
Athens, Georgia 30605
rwinn@arches.uga.edu
706-542-6227
706-542-6106 FAX
Message from Terry Hawk
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 12:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: hawk0001@mc.duke.edu
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Are plants making fish happy???
This is really funny in a way. We use the Zebrafish book as our
source material for setting up our programs. I would suggest you get
help from your IACUC chairperson. Natural is not always "better" (we
don't use sewers for housing rats do we?).
Good luck -
Terry Hawk
----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------- C. Terrance Hawk, PhD, DVM, ACLAM Duke University
Medical Center Deputy Director Div. Lab.
Animal Resources, Box 3180 e-mail hawk0001@mc.duke.edu
Durham, NC 27710 voice 919-684-2797
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Message from Linda Barthel
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Date sent: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 12:45:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Linda Barthel
To: PATRICIA EDWARDS
Subject: Re: Reply - Are plants making fish happy???
What about plastic plants? We use these routinely when breeding the
zebras. It has helped-I think the fish prefer to have some cover.
They always hang out around and in the plants when we have them in the
tanks. Linda Barthel Research Associate II Department of Anatomy and
Cell Biology University of Michigan lab (313) 764-7476 fax (313)
Cell Biology University of Michigan lab (313) 764-7476 fax (313)
763-1166 barthel@umich.edu
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Message from Vicky Pritchard
*******************************************************
From: V L Pritchard
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Are plants making fish happy???
Date sent: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:44:21 +0000 (GMT)
Dear Thomas and Eva,
I work with wild zebrafish which I collected in Nepal and
Bangladesh (they come from South rather than Southeast Asia). I mainly
found them in small, sluggish bodies of water with plenty of aquatic
plants; I also found them in some large rivers and in a shallow, sandy
stream where they were shoaling under plant cover at the edges. In the
lab, wild fish are unhappy and reluctant to breed unless they have a
"natural"environment with gravel and "plants". This may be why some
zebrafish researchers seem to have trouble with them. I make my
"plants" by cutting up green plastic mesh and putting(floating) it in
the tanks; they can be taken out in a second and are easy to keep
clean, although small fish do occasionally get stuck in them.
Lab stocks of zebrafish which have been in captivity for many
generations however, are a different case and are likely to be adapted
to the standard lab conditions, both as a result of individuals being
reared in these conditions and of genes suited to the lab environment
having been selected for over time. My guess is that keeping these
fish like this is probably much less cruel then a lot of standard
farming practices are.
Yours,
Vicky Pritchard
Department of Biology,
University of Leeds,
U.K.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Message from Warren Heideman
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Date sent: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 12:50:23 -0500
From: wheidema@facstaff.wisc.edu
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Are plants making fish happy???
Hi,
A glance into the aquarium hobby literature, which includes articles
written by some knowledgeable and some not so knowledgeable people
will show that this is widely regarded as true. However, I doubt that
this has ever been demonstrated in anything like a controlled manner.
I doubt that fish that like to swim in the open like zebrafish would
get a lot of benefit. One thing to consider is that those who say
that a planted tank reduces stress would be equally satisfied with
tanks containing plastic plants or pipe segments, flower pots or
coffee cups. So if you can't satisfy the folks any other way you
should at least be able to avoid real plants. By the way, the light
levels needed to keep aquarium plants are higher than found in most ZF
labs.
warren
Warren Heideman
School of Pharmacy
University of Wisconsin
425 N. Charter St
Madison WI 53706
phone: 608 262 1795
fax: 608 262 3397
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Message from Laszlo Varadi
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Date sent: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 20:12:29 -0800
From: "Dr. Laszlo Varadi"
Subject: Eating and spawning
Dear everybody in ZF,
I am only a fishbreeder in Hungary. I/we have propagated many
warmwater fish species i.e. zebrafish too. Usually we use hormonal
treatment (dried pituitary gland or GnRh analogs) or natural-like
methods for artificially reproductions. In case of propagation
zebrafish we always use green plastic net - which gives free way for
the eggs to falling down to the bottom but stops the parents's
cannibalism. I/we think if an animal likes/wants to spawn it feels
very well. We know (as the businessman knows), if a fish eats and
spawns it must be happy.
Try this method and be happy with the lot of eggs, that you get,
Laszlo from Hungary
--
Laszlo VARADI Ph.D.
University of Agricultural Sciences,Institute of Animal Husbandry,
Laboratory of FISH CULTURE Address: Pater K. st. 1.,H-2103 Godollo,
HUNGARY Fax: +36 28-310804, E-mail: varadi@nt.ktg.gau.hu
http://spike.fa.gau.hu/~tejfol/varadi.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Message from Keith Cheng
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:27:29 -0500
From: "Keith C. Cheng"
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Are plants making fish happy???
Dear Eva and Thomas,
We use no real plants, and only use bits of net or artifical plants for
spawning.
It is clear from experience in many laboratories that real plants from pet
stores or the wild bring undesirable organisms that can either make the fish
sick and die, or begin to fill the pipes and other tanks with insects that
rapidly spread from tank to tank. It is also impractical to properly clean
tanks that have plants in them, which also contributes to illness and death.
Therefore, real plants are absolutely forbidden in my and many laboratories,
and should not be considered. It is also clear that fish can be very
"happy" without real or artificial plants (i.e. bright color, intact fins,
active swimming, and no "huddling" in the bottoms of tanks, which as you
know they do under stress). Since our laboratory fish never had the plants,
this is "natural" for them. On the other hand, for spawning, we have found
(by impression, not controlled experiment) that bits of net or artificial
plants seem to allow greater survival and less damage to spawning fish in
mouse cages.
Good luck.
Keith Cheng
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Message from Mary Hagedorn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Date sent: Wed, 25 Mar 98 12:29:40 EST
From: Mary Hagedorn
To: edwards@uoneuro.uoregon.edu
Dear Colleagues,
I agree that fish prefer to have some place to hide, especially in and
around plants. I have gotten around the introduction of pathogens by
using plastic plants. Not nearly as asethetic as real plants, but
does the trick.
Sincerely,
Mary Hagedorn Smithsonian Institution
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dear Colleagues,
>From the variety of answers I can't discern whether the question is to
keep the fish happy, or keep the fish keepers happy. Under a various
conditions, our fish seem to do about the same with or without
"plants," be they real or plastic. I would point out that the lab
environment with or without plants is probably significantly better
than the wild environment from the fishes point of view--no
significant predators (generally), few pathogens, easy food,
frequently little competition for a mate. From variations in our
breeding success rates and water quality seems to have the greatest
effect along with the age of the fish population. From the outside,
I'd surmise that these organisms have fairly well exploited a human
created niche.
Sincerely,
Charles Carlson
Charles Carlson
Director of Life Sciences
Exploratorium
3601 Lyon St.
San Francisco, CA 94123
Tel: (415) 561-0319
Fax: (415) 561-0370